-=> Charon wrote to Obuing <=-
> Re: Question?
> By: Charon to Obuing on Wed Feb 12 2014 03:42 pm
>
> > Re: Question?
> > By: Obuing to All on Tue Feb 11 2014 20:40:27
[snip]
> >
> How can you accuse me of judging if you aren't making a judgement. Scripture
> says to judge rightly. "Do not judge, so that you won't be judged. For with
> judgement you use, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will
> measured to you." Matthew 7:1-2. This teaches that God does judge, and we
> should refrain from judgement where possible. However, it doesn't teach to
> ignore wrong. If someone murdered your family, you would rightly judge their
> actions to be evil and desire justice.
>
> Your post was offensive and was a flame. However, I'll hang in if you want t
> hash this out. You doctorine of salvation is way off if you think anyone is
> saved by attending organized religion and that is NOT what I said. No one is
> saved from the consequences of their sinful behavior without an intervention
> Jesus Christ. Only by relationship with him will one avoid judgement because
> will be the judge.
>
> The Church was designed by God for fellowship between believers and Himself.
> It's not that you can't worship God on your own. You can. But you cannot
> experience the community of joint believers getting through life (and
> persecution) without a gathering of like faith. This is church. If you don't
> like one community of believers, then find another one. They are NOT all the
> same. In church you will learn from each other and become much stronger in y
> faith . . . and you might even make some friends.
>
Ch> First, my response was not a "flame" and if you have taken it as so,
Ch> then obviously it has struck a nerve. I am not bashing you, only
Ch> pointing out that
Ch> there are people out there that like to judge the actions of others
Ch> without looking at there own lives. I see it eveyday, and guess what,
Ch> they do it in the name of Jesus. I disagrree with your comment that
Ch> "God is the church". God is not the church. The "church" is Jesus
Ch> Christ. The physical churches, or organized religions, are man's
Ch> attempt to understand God, in which we fail miserably. Most of the
Ch> suffering, conflict, etc in our lives is due to our "religious"
Ch> beliefs. If you do not believe me, then why would responding to your
Ch> post be so offensive, and a "flame"? Also, religions bring about war.
Ch> Man kind has fought over beliefs for thousands of years. But, I
Ch> digress and I do not want to sound negative on this subject.
Ch> On a onther note, I did not "judge" you or any organized religion.
Ch> However, the post that you officated a funeral for a lady who was an
Ch> "outspoken Christi an" who did not attend church regularly and then say
Ch> that you were "amazed how people who claim to love Jesus, but fail to
Ch> love the people he dies for" sounds a little judgemental on your part.
Ch> I understand that you are strong in your faith, and that you have your
Ch> core beliefs, and I applaud you for that. However, faith left
Ch> untested, is not truly faith at all. I love God, the Father Almighty.
Ch> I also love his son, Jesus, who came to this earth, lived as a man, and
Ch> dies for all of us.
Ch> If someone murdered my family, you are correct to say that I would want
Ch> to seek justice. However, I am supposed to forgive that person, or
Ch> persons, of their actions and let God handle the rest. This is placing
Ch> my faith truly in God. Now, on a serious note, it would be hard to do
Ch> so and I would most likely seek that justice out, which is something
Ch> that God definately would not want me to do. There is a fine line
Ch> between justice and vengenance.
Ch> So, I would be more than happy, and open, to discuss my faith, beliefs,
Ch> etc with you. However, to say that my response was "offensive" or a
Ch> "flame" is juvenile in thought and only shows that you yourself would
Ch> like to start a "flame" over this discussion.
Well said. I feel as if the confusion stems with the actual description people
derive from the word "church". There is a spiritualistic church, where one can
feel solice in knowing the relationship between God and themselves is strong
thus the mirroring effect of Christ's teachings comes from within. There is a
physical chruch where others gather to celebrate their beliefs together. One
doesn't outshine the other. There are many who feel it is their way or the
highway.
I've done pretty extensive travels throughout the country seeing the different
"sects" of Christianity, some postive, some not so. The Bible is not a chinese
menu as some people feels it is to the point they only choose the verse that
proves the point they are trying to make at the time. Leviticus seems to be
the most prevelent for some in choosing to pick certain areas because it is
"convienent" to prove a point. It rests in two crucial beliefs, the world was
created "good" and while being vunerable to sin and a faithful enactment of
ritual making God's presence available. Ignoring it compromises the harmony
between God and the world. This book was the basis of organized thoughts of
"church". To me, this was a way of control, where rules brought about were the
foundation of centralized worship through the guidence of a centralized
pastorhood. We must also remember material was consistantly added over a 200
year period, which makes me tend to believe it was the rabbinical "Law du Jour"
for control.
For me, Christ came not to condone these practices but to destroy the very
foundation. Remember, the years following Christ's death most were illiterate,
printed material was extremely limited and thus the staus quo on formation of
communities where the "Teachings" were discussed and shared. Our abilities have
expanded well beyond those of 2,000 years ago could have ever imagined. When
Christ told Simon, "Upon you I will build My church", he wasn't looking upon
Simon as a building but someone who'll spread the Word to all and let them
decide on how to praise Jesus and his Father in an internal, spiritual design.
Christ knew "Centers of Worship" become corrupt over time and to this day it's
still true. (Remember that little "romp" through the temple)
I was born and raised Roman Catholic. Spent 12 years of parochial schooling
and even started my college expereince at a RC university. I am happy to state
that I can finally experience a Pope that has reversed the status quo of
mega-chruches, hierarchy and the likes and got back to the basics of guarding
his flock. He understands he's a man who must guide all, who must understand
we're all responsible for our decisions, good or bad in each person's life.
Where man's fears will always guide his decisions. Where those in power can and
will instill their fears upon others for the simple fact, they can.
In conclusion, the teachings are there, the path to those teachings is wider
than ever. No man or woman has the right to judge another based solely on thier
fears. How one chooses to worship our Lord and Savior is up to the individual.
Live your life in a one on One basis or within a community, the choice is up to
you... but please understand, neither maybe right for the other. We only have
one "Judge"... and we'll all be before Him before we know it. Live and let
live, worship and let worship is my mantra.
Enjoy!
Bill
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